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Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics
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htaccess
Posted 2012-07-04 2:52 AM (#3566)
Subject: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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This thread was suggested by dustydigger the other day. Lets talk about Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics!

  • What are the classics of Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics comics?
  • Are super hero comics Science Fiction?
  • What are your favourite titles and why?
  • Will you enjoy SF/F comics just because you read SF/F books?
  • Are comics juvenile?
  • What are the differences between US and UK comics.
  • What interesting non US and UK comics are there?
  • What about manga??
  • Are foreign comics more likely to be consumed by english speakers as they are easier to translate than books due to them being a visual medium?

Personally I was a huge comic fan in the 80's and have pretty stopped reading comics, no particular reason, it just happened. It could be quite interesting to check out some of the classics and see if they still interest me.

Discuss



Edited by htaccess 2012-07-04 2:58 AM
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htaccess
Posted 2012-07-04 3:09 AM (#3567 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Any discussion Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics needs to include the works of the British comic 2000AD . There are many great characters, some that are well worth checking out are:

Please don't judge Dredd by the movie ...


Edited by htaccess 2012-07-04 3:16 AM
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htaccess
Posted 2012-07-04 3:38 AM (#3568 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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<p>Great recommendations <a href="http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2010/08/mind_meld_comics_for_science_fiction_fans/">here</a>. "The Invisibles" and "Transmetropolitan" sound very interesting. I really must dig out my 200AD collection and re-read "The Ballad of Halo Jones". Others that seem to be consistently lauded:</p><ul><li>The Dark Knight Returns</li><li>Watchman</li><li>Sandman</li><li>Top 10</li><li>Akira</li></ul><p>I know Watchman and Akira deserve to be there.</p>
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Rhondak101
Posted 2012-07-04 9:05 AM (#3571 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: SC, USA		@Htaccess I'm one of those people whom Sandman brought back to comics as an adult. I am also unashamed of my love for Sandman because of its depth of literary allusions and associations. Sandman led me to some of Alan Moore's works. The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen has that same depth of allusion, and I think that From Hell is a fantastic piece of work. I always read more DC than Marvel. That's my background

I've been thinking a lot about some of the questions that you raised above because I just finished re-reading Michael Chabon's The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier and Clay for a class that I'm teaching in the Fall. I'm also teaching Marjane Satrapi's The Complete Persepolis in that class. (Like Maus, Persepolis has been accepted as capital "L" literature, not just a comic.) In the same way that I keep harping on the variability and randomness of genre labels, I dislike that fact people think that Arkham Asylum can't be significant work but Maus is.

So I've been thinking a lot about how word and image work together to tell a story and if that form is inherently better, worse (or just different) than narrative writing. Kavalier and Clay raises all sorts of issues concerning the inferiority of superhero comics and the ways that comics evolved from newspaper like strips in a book form to a format that allowed writers and artists to tell stories in different ways. If you have not read Kavalier and Clay, it really is worth the time. Sorry to get all English Professor-y at the end. I've been reading a lot of critical articles in the past two days about comics, so all this is in my head with no place to go until the Fall

The two comic that I want to read that I have not are Transmetropolitan, as you mentioned, and a 2011 one Habibi. It is listed as number 2 on this list. http://www.avclub.com/articles/the-best-comics-of-2011-graphic-nove...

Thanks for starting this discussion.
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htaccess
Posted 2012-07-05 2:10 AM (#3581 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Grr, stupid html check box, I wish I could still edit posts after 30min.

@Rhondak101 I still haven't read most for those you mention including all the Alan Moore titles. I have seen the movies, most of which I actually liked and have read most of this 2000AD output. I'm probably in for a treat reading all of these. Also my library seems to actually have a decent graphic novel section

 There must be very few comics accepted as capital "L" literature, I'm guessing its even harder for a comic than a SF book?

"Heart of Empire" as described here sounds great, has anyone read it?

 I am also pleased to see Tintin (destination and explorers on the moon) included in some of the lists. I learnt to read reading Tintin and am happy to regard the adventures of Tintin as one of the 20th century's major works



Edited by htaccess 2012-07-05 2:25 AM
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Rhondak101
Posted 2012-07-05 9:01 AM (#3594 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: SC, USA		@htaccess As for "Literature" there are about three authors (maybe more that I'm not thinking of) that are canonical: Art Spiegelman, Lynda Barry, and Marjane Satrapi. I read somewhere recently that Spiegelman claims that Maus has been included on 10,000 college syllabi.

The Heart of Empire does sound interesting. I did like The Diamond Age.

One of the interesting titles I've come across in the last couple of years is Unwritten. The comic is about Tommy Taylor whose father wrote a series of Harry Potterish YA books with the protagonist named Tommy Taylor. The father dies mysteriously with an unfinished book. Tommy is grown up, but everyone treats him like the character not himself. I read that the authors got the idea--not from J. K. Rowling--but from A. A. Milne and his use of Christopher Robin. The setting is magical/fantasy, but very interesting. There's a bit of Jasper Fforde in that it seems that characters can leave books and humans can enter books. It's pretty smart.
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Scott Laz
Posted 2012-07-05 4:30 PM (#3605 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: Gunnison, Colorado		htaccess and Rhonda: I would second all the recommendations on this thread!

Rhonda, if you're interested in how comics "work", check out "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud.

Agreed that "The Unwritten" is one of the better current series. I was happy to see it nominated for a Hugo (Hugo voters have gotten criticism from the comics world for past nominations!) Another current SF/F series I've been recommending that just started is Brian K. Vaughan's Saga (from Image Comics). It's a uniquely strange planetary romance.

I've been reading comics pretty consistently since the '80s, when someone gave me copies of a few issues of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing and Dave Sim's Cerebus. From there, I picked up Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns when they came out, and was hooked. I was surprised comics had "grown up" (based on past experience with them), but then why shouldn't they? SF had a similar transformation from its earliest genre days, as fans who loved it as kids grew up and became writers. Many of my favorites over the years have been from DC's Vertigo imprint (along with the comics they were publishing in the '80s that paved the way for Vertigo): Swamp Thing, Doom Patrol, Sandman, Transmetropolitan, Y: The Last Man, The Unwritten...

Sandman was my favorite in the '90s, but for some reason I've never read Gaiman's post-comics work. I guess I still think of him as a comics writer. I waited impatiently for each new issue to come out (especially in the first couple of years), and got my copy of Sandman #1 signed by Gaiman and Dringenberg at a Salt Lake City comic shop in 1990!

The Invisibles (also a Vertigo book) was mentioned above--also one of my favorites, and Grant Morrison is my all-time favorite comics writer, but I'm not sure I'd start with The Invisibles. Better introductions to his work might be Zenith (from 2000 AD, but unfortunately not available in collection because of a rights dispute), Animal Man (a metatextual superhero book that was groundbreaking at the time, especially coming form DC Comics), Arkham Asylum (psychological take on the Batman/Joker relationship, with amazing art by Dave McKean) or Doom Patrol (more reality-questioning superheroes; my weird and wonderful personal favorite comics series). The Invisibles is a much more challenging and personal work, full of allusion, but worth the effort. Since then, Morrison has concentrated more on superheroes, with excellent runs on JLA (Justice League) and, more recently, Batman and Superman. Current issues of Action Comics and Batman Incorporated are worth reading. He also wrote a book last year called Supergods: Our World in the Age of the Superhero, which lays out his personal philosophy in regard to the role of comics and superheroes in our culture, and illuminates his own work in the field (especially the Invisibles--partly inspired by his own metaphysical experiences, and to which he imputes magical effects on his own life!).
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-07-05 4:42 PM (#3607 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: UK		Scott while I was maundering on to you on another thread ,you were already here! lol. Do please think about a blog entry on the subject when you have time.This ignoramus would learn so much from you!.I need to understand just what it is all about,and where is the best entry point for an absolute beginner like me.I just adore scholarly type articles laying out an overview of a topic-any type of topic,I just want to see the peaks and troughs! lol
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Scott Laz
Posted 2012-07-05 5:03 PM (#3609 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: Gunnison, Colorado		Hi, Dusty. I think the admins would like to keep the blog reserved for book (literature) related stuff, in keeping with the site's focus, but maybe sometime... I can certainly go on all day giving recommendations!
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Rhondak101
Posted 2012-07-05 5:17 PM (#3610 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: SC, USA		@Scott, I've been running up against the McCloud citation for about a week now. When I return to my academic library (I'm currently visiting the parents in Alabama), I'm going to get a copy of the McCloud book. I've got several citations collected now for Comics and Literature, Comics and History, Comics and Postmodernism....

I jumped on the Sandman bandwagon around issue #30. I have some signed TPBs and the Orpheus issue as well--DragonCon in Atlanta around 1990. I love Gaiman's novels as well because they exhibit that same kind of reference to earlier writers and myths that the Sandman did. If you want to add a book to your list, I'd start with American Gods.

I'm behind on the Unwritten. I think I've read the first three TPBs (but maybe it is only 2).

More later.
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gallyangel
Posted 2012-07-08 12:59 AM (#3644 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: The Wilds of Washington		Probably the easiest entry into SF comics, high water marks in a surging sea are Sandman and The Watchmen. The Watchmen is within the genre of the superhero and Watchmen, definitely - the first issues don't count, is not.
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Administrator
Posted 2012-07-08 10:43 AM (#3648 - in reply to #3644)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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I thought it might be worth mentioning that we have The Sandman in our database in case anyone has missed it.  Not the kind of thing we usually include but it got in by way of the NPR: Top 100 Science-Fiction, Fantasy Books list.

We have the 10 volume omnibus series.  When you bind a bunch of comics into a single book do you call it an omnibus?  Or does it become a "graphic novel" then?  My comic reading experience has been infrequent and spotty at best and I've never been sure of the nomenclature.

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Scott Laz
Posted 2012-07-08 12:56 PM (#3653 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: Gunnison, Colorado		The nomenclature question opens a big can of worms, because we're dealing with publishers' marketing terms with no agreed-on definitions. It's tough because the vast majority of comics begin as serialized stories of one sort or another, released in chunks of 20-or-so pages, which might then be collected in various formats. Before the late '80s, almost no comics had been collected into books, but the practice slowly grew until now almost everything released is eventually collected.

Publishers refer to unserialized, single-volume stories as "orignal graphic novels," but the graphic novel term has been used for just about any sort of collection, probably because publishers and fans think it sounds more "respectable" than comics, but I'd reserve it for actual graphic NOVELS--stories that may have been serialized originally (as a miniseries or limited series), but which were always intended to have a beginning, middle, and end. Watchmen is the early success story of this type--a self-contained twelve-issue series outside the rest of DC's superhero continuity that was collected into a book that has continued to sell. Even Maus was originally serialized in an ongoing anthology series called "Raw."

A book collecting a portion of an ongoing series (like Sandman), I think of as a collection rather than a graphic novel. You could say that the entire Sandman series (75 issues plus a couple of "specials", is a graphic novel, since, even though it began as an ongoing series in DC's regular superhero universe continuity, it pretty quickly morphed into a self-contained series of "story arcs" that did reach an eventual conclusion, but I always think of it as a "series." It became the model for lots of subsequent series at DC/Vertigo and smaller companies, because it established that comics could continue to live on as series of book collections long after the original series of "floppies" reached its conclusion. Other successful examples are Y: The Last Man, Fables, and The Walking Dead (the last two still being ongoing, but which presumably will eventually reach an end).

When you get into ongoing superhero series, the novel designation doesn't make sense. Some of these series have run for decades, and been written and drawn by many different people, and are part of a larger superhero "universe" in which everything is connected. There are reprint collections of even some of the oldest comics now, but the original issues were thought of as disposable in their time, and written by people who never conceived that they would be collected and reread. Today, though, even the ongoing superhero series are written with an eye to the "trade" [collection], and tend to be written in "story arcs" of six issues or so, so that they read well in collections, but they are still part of longer ongoing storylines. But even within the superhero world, there are lots of miniseries (outside the regular ongoing series) that are reasonably self-contained, and even original "graphic novels", like Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, which could easily be read as a standalone "novel" by anyone with a general idea of who Batman is. This is why the definitions are so fuzzy.

The publishers usually use "omnibus" to refer to massive collections of 20 or more issues of a series. (DC likes the term "absolute edition" for this sort of book.) I'm looking at the "Fantastic Four Omnibus Vol. 1" on my shelf, which contains the first thirty or so issues of the original Stan Lee/Jack Kirby series in a 1000-page hardback, but these issues are also available as the first three volumes of a series of collections known as "Marvel Masterworks: Fantastic Four". You've got the 10-volume Sandman collection in your database, which I think I've marked as "read", but I really didn't read those books. I read the original 75 issues, and recently reread them in the 4-volume "Absolute Sandman" series, which collects the same material into four massive hardback volumes (with "DVD extras" instead of ten slim paperbacks. In both cases, they're trying to redefine what is actually a "comics series" as some sort of book series, but it can be done (and often is done) in multiple ways.

If you ever decide to include more comics on the site (which I probably just convinced you not to!), the trade paperback collections make the most sense to include (as you did with Sandman). They're the most popular (and reasonably priced) format, and people who've read them in other formats will be able to tell which ones correspond to what they've read.

Got all that? :-)

Edited by Scott Laz 2012-07-08 12:57 PM
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-07-14 12:52 PM (#3735 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: UK		Finally finished Spiegelman's Maus this week,very very good.Today I was amazed to find Moore and Gibbons Watchmen had just come in the library,so I snapped it up.Having an indulgence day tomorrow,will read Watchmen ,and volumes 8-12 of my bonkers manga Natsui Takaya's Fruits baskets
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gallyangel
Posted 2012-07-15 4:58 AM (#3743 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: The Wilds of Washington		If you liked, well, liked might not be the word for it, Maus, then the Adolf series by Tezuka might be a good read for you. It tells the tale of two boys named Adolf, both living in Japan. One is a Jew, the other is the son of a high party German official in Japan. Unlikely friends until the war comes and changes everything. Might be hard to find. I think the last printing was a decade ago.

Edited by gallyangel 2012-07-15 5:00 AM
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stevefrank
Posted 2012-08-29 6:12 AM (#4056 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics


science fiction is very popular in our history...This era is running for last many many thousand years.........
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-08-30 1:19 AM (#4060 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: UK		Well,FINALLY finished Watchmen.I read it in tiny sections over a long period,so a reread is certainly necessary togather up my thoughts.I was definitely most impressed.It is said that Moore wanted this as a showcase for what the comic book form can achieve,and I have to say he succeeded magnificently in this complexly plotted ,multithreaded,multi timespread tale - which also has that gruesome pirate tale as counterpoint! dont know enough to comment on the artwork,I only know it was suitably dark in tone.thus complementing the dark tones of the story lol.And I now know and recogcnise the iconic bloodstained smiley face! lol.Altogether a most engrossing unusual read for me.
Next up,I have ordered Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight returns.Then I think a bit of The Sandman? :0)
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gallyangel
Posted 2012-08-30 1:35 AM (#4061 - in reply to #4060)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: The Wilds of Washington		Dustydigger: Sandman, Watchmen, and the Dark Knight returns. That's like ticking off some of the top ten of all time, that is. With the sandman, you have to give Gaiman a bit of time. He was trying to fit the Sandman into the DC universe with the first few episodes, but he got over that impulse and things go quickly from good to great, from great to excellent, and then even to my god, that's unbelievable. Did you know that they're published new watchmen stuff right now? All the main characters have short miniseries running right now. That might clutter or clarify the picture for you.
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Scott Laz
Posted 2012-08-30 4:52 PM (#4070 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: Gunnison, Colorado		Agreed that those are pretty much the "big three." If you ever look for more Moore, consider V for Vendetta, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, or (if you don't mind a bit of horror) his Swamp Thing series.
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stevefrank
Posted 2012-08-31 7:23 AM (#4074 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics


I love to read some favorite science fiction comics...
1 Daredevil
2 Infinite Kung-Fu
3 Witch Doctor
4 Wolverine and the X-Men
5 Feynman
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-08-31 12:09 PM (#4076 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: UK		Not a single volume of Sandman in the library today.When I wasnt looking for them there were at least half a dozen.Got 2 volumes of League of Exrtraordinary Gentlemen and 3 of Swamp Thing to keep me going while waiting for Dark Knight .Swamp Thing looks good fun !
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hihik
Posted 2012-09-01 2:32 PM (#4083 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: Boston, MA		i just finished reading The Watchmen, my first comics. very good. up until then i couldn't bring myself to like comics - it was difficult to follow both the imagery and text .. i didnt know what to look at first .. hard to explain. i guess, the story saved it for me - very complex, very realistic, very human. emotions one can relate to, difficult questions to keep asking yourself 'what would i do'.

i'm planning to also read Sandman and V for Vendetta.
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Scott Laz
Posted 2012-09-01 3:35 PM (#4086 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: Gunnison, Colorado		@hihik: That's not surprising. Reading comics takes some getting used to. The image tends to take precedence over the words... Even figuring out exactly how to follow the panel order on the page can be tricky sometimes...
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gallyangel
Posted 2012-09-01 5:44 PM (#4088 - in reply to #4086)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: The Wilds of Washington		And just think, the manga lovers have to read right to left since that's how it's all translated from the Japanese these days. Practice practice practice and then it's second nature.
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dustydigger
Posted 2012-09-02 3:59 PM (#4090 - in reply to #3566)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction and Fantasy Comics



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Location: UK		LOL.I know what younmean.I read quite a bit manga earlier in the year,and last week when I was reading Watchmen I found myself wanting to read right to left,with some confusion! LolI find manga fun,light and relaxing,but I havent been able to read it easily for months,because of my eyes.Hope to get back into the swim in a couple of months.So many books,so little time!
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