Sub-Genres
Rhondak101
Posted 2011-07-19 7:59 AM (#2511)
Subject: Sub-Genres



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Since you've added the Guardian list, there are several books that don't quite fit the categories in the sub-genre pull down menu any more. Many of them do fit the category Magic Realism. I was wondering if you would be able to add that category to the menu. Are there other categories that WWE users think would be appropriate for the books on the Guardian list?

Thanks,

Rhonda
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jynnantonnyx
Posted 2011-07-19 8:36 AM (#2512 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: RE: Sub-Genres



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We've added Magical Realism as a sub-genre tag, so feel free to start tagging whichever novels seem appropriate.

http://www.worldswithoutend.com/searchwwe.asp?gid=59

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Rhondak101
Posted 2011-07-19 8:52 AM (#2513 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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That was quick! Thanks!
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Administrator
Posted 2011-07-19 9:28 AM (#2515 - in reply to #2513)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Rhondak101 - 2011-07-19 8:52 AM That was quick! Thanks!

That was a great catch!  I'm eager to hear if there are any others we need to add. 

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hihik
Posted 2011-08-28 7:57 PM (#2613 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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how about Horror? i had difficulty tagging Shining without this sub-genre ..
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Administrator
Posted 2011-08-28 8:45 PM (#2615 - in reply to #2613)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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hihik - 2011-08-28 7:57 PM how about Horror? i had difficulty tagging Shining without this sub-genre ..

We've been using Dark Fantasy in place of Horror.  Not sure why.  Is there a difference?  I'm not much of a fan of that kind of fiction so I don't know.

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hihik
Posted 2011-08-28 8:50 PM (#2616 - in reply to #2615)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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-SPOILER-
huh, that's an idea ... i guess you can call a sentient hotel story a dark fantasy
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Administrator
Posted 2011-08-28 8:58 PM (#2617 - in reply to #2616)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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I've always been a bit confused about "Dark Fantasy" frankly.  That term seemed to pop up out of nowhere for me since I don't read the stuff.  I've always called it horror myself.  I think perhaps it started in the UK.  Take a look at the British Fantasy Society Award.  I'd call all of this year's nominees Horror but then this is a fantasy award so I guess they'd call it Dark Fantasy.

 

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Jain
Posted 2013-12-10 11:32 PM (#5824 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Additional sub-genres that would be great to have available:

* Aliens [This is partially covered by the "Alien Invasion" and "First Contact" sub-genres, but the broader category allows for accurate categorization of books like Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand, in which the contact between aliens and humans is long-established.]
* Dragons
* Feminist SF
* Historical SF
* Juvenile SF
* LGBTQ Fantasy
* LGBTQ SF
* Romantic SF
* Short Story Collection [Not a sub-genre per se, but such incredibly useful information!]
* Wizards

I also noticed that "Soft SF" is a relatively unpopular sub-genre tag on this site, to the point that even the Foundation series--which is specifically mentioned in the definition of Soft SF on the sub-genres page--is more frequently labeled Hard SF than Soft SF. I'd suggest that this is because of the ambiguity of the term "Soft SF," and perhaps also because of the negative connotations "Soft SF" has in some circles of SF fandom. Accordingly, "Social SF" could be a useful sub-genre tag instead of or in addition to "Soft SF"; it's a more precise term that also happens to be in common use, including by authors such as Ursula K. Le Guin who often write in this sub-genre.
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HRO
Posted 2014-01-26 3:56 AM (#6236 - in reply to #2617)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Administrator - 2011-08-28 9:58 PM

I've always been a bit confused about "Dark Fantasy" frankly. That term seemed to pop up out of nowhere for me since I don't read the stuff. I've always called it horror myself. I think perhaps it started in the UK. Take a look at the British Fantasy Society Award. I'd call all of this year's nominees Horror but then this is a fantasy award so I guess they'd call it Dark Fantasy.



This is perhaps the best explanation I've come across on how to differentiate between dark fantasy and horror:

"So, to me, a work is dark fantasy if it deals with any elements of fantasy and/or the paranormal in a way that studies the dark and frightening side of our nature, psychology and the weird, sublime and uncanny. If it doesnt shy away from the gore and horror of its own darkness, yet doesnt primarily aim to spook. If it has heroes that are not knights in shining armour, but people that sometimes have to do unsavoury things. If it has villains that arent necessarily all bad as well as villains that really are all bad. If its dark and twisted and delves into the depths of speculative fiction, without primarily aiming to scare or gross out its readers, then its dark fantasy." SOURCE
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HRO
Posted 2014-01-26 3:59 AM (#6237 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Would it be possible to add Gaslamp Fantasy as a subgenre? It's like the fantasy cousin of the sci-fi steampunk subgenre. (I can explain more if necessary.)
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2014-01-26 9:48 AM (#6242 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Edited by justifiedsinner 2014-01-26 9:52 AM
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2014-01-26 9:53 AM (#6243 - in reply to #2617)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Administrator - 2011-08-28 9:58 PM

I've always been a bit confused about "Dark Fantasy" frankly. That term seemed to pop up out of nowhere for me since I don't read the stuff. I've always called it horror myself. I think perhaps it started in the UK. Take a look at the British Fantasy Society Award. I'd call all of this year's nominees Horror but then this is a fantasy award so I guess they'd call it Dark Fantasy.



That's because it's 2 awards one for Fantasy and one for Horror. The fantasy noms include Railsea, Joe Abercrombie and Margo Lanagan. The winner was on both lists however.
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DrNefario
Posted 2014-01-26 10:59 AM (#6245 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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The quote you're replying to is from 2011.
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HRO
Posted 2014-01-26 11:35 AM (#6246 - in reply to #6245)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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DrNefario - 2014-01-26 11:59 AM The quote you're replying to is from 2011.


Yes, I know. I popped in here to request that Gaslamp Fantasy be added as a subgenre and saw the old discussion about Horror/Dark Fantasy. It's always kinna bugged me that they are not two different subgenres on WWEnd (because they are definitely two different things) so I commented.

But thanks for pointing it out.
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Seren
Posted 2014-03-21 10:39 PM (#6738 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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I'm newly registered on the site, although I've been using it for a while, and I'm not au fait with all the old posts and discussions (which I don't really have the time to thoroughly read). However, I did have a couple of thoughts.

On the matter of Dark Fantasy there are 2 thoughts:

Firstly, I draw very firm distinctions between it as a subgenre of fantasy and horror. They are NOT at all the same. The entire feel of the books is different, as noted above by some sources, horror sets out to, well, horrify (disturb, distress, shock, scare, horrify, etc), while dark fantasy may contain many of the same themes (ghosts, vampires, werewolves, and so on), and they may disturb one in the reading, that is not the primary emphasis of the book. In fact, the primary emphasis is more likely to be an exploration of the dark and light sides of human (or other) nature, it emphasises shades of grey, both it's heroes and villains are less likely to be all black or white, and it generally leaves the reader with a sense of hope and/or triumph.

Secondly, until I started using this site, I'd hardly ever seen the term 'Dark Fantasy'. Books that fall into this subgenre here are what I generally find elsewhere as Paranormal Fantasy, whether in bookstores (online or physical) or in how authors refer to their own works. The two do seem to be interchangeable terms from your description of them here. Perhaps both terms could be mentioned, as you do with High/Epic Fantasy, or Alternate Reality/Parallel Universes?

My other thought was to do with Science Fiction. I noted that Clones/Cloning seems to be absent. Although this does sometimes overlap with themes such as mind uploading, human development, or mutation, it is far more often its own distinct theme and plays a strong role in quite a number of SF works. Not only the technical elements of cloning are dealt with, but the moral, ethical, and other possibilites involved may also be covered.

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Seren
Posted 2014-03-24 2:38 AM (#6750 - in reply to #6738)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Seren - 2014-03-22 2:39 PM
My other thought was to do with Science Fiction. I noted that Clones/Cloning seems to be absent. Although this does sometimes overlap with themes such as mind uploading, human development, or mutation, it is far more often its own distinct theme and plays a strong role in quite a number of SF works. Not only the technical elements of cloning are dealt with, but the moral, ethical, and other possibilites involved may also be covered.


On thinking more about this, I realised that in fact Clones/Cloning might be considered to belong with, or be a subgenre of, some other themes that don't quite fit. Or that I'm not quite sure where they fit, perhaps. Most substantially, cloning might be a subset of genetic engineering/manipulation.

Genetic engineering doesn't quite seem to fit, to me at least, in 'human development'. As described here at WWE "Human development fiction predicts future capabilities evolved by mankind, such as enhanced mental or physical abilities." This specifically uses the term evolved, which strongly suggests something other than the direct and deliberate construction of humans who are genetically different - and may, or may not, have enhanced mental or physical abilities. Lacking either evolution or even necessarily having different capabilities or abilities, genetic engineering (including but not limited to cloning) doesn't seem to fit.

Perhaps then, it fits in as 'hard SF'? While genetic engineering certainly strongly suggests a very strong technological base and /or background, in order to carry out said manipulation or engineering, I have seen a few instances where that was not the case (where other powers substituted for technology). Further, even in the more usual high tech scenario, although the means used to carry out the engineering is technological, it is carried out in the more messy area of biology, and often entails the even messier areas of sociology and psychology - amongst others. So that might make it more like 'soft SF'. In addition, although the technological may be explicitly present, it may - or may not - be in the foreground of the story, it may - or may not - be explained in any detailed way.

This area of genetic engineering, and the linked area of cloning, are also linked less strongly with other areas to do with (generally) high technology medical and biological tinkering with humanity that is not consonant with 'human development'. Some of these might fit into other areas, some might not. For example:

* Immortality through the use of genetic engineering or cryogenics. Both deal with immortality, although in different ways. And different from that achieved through evolutionary or divine or magical means.

* Genetically engineered resistance to disease, however, or correction of genetic defects, need not have to do immortality per se, it's certainly not evolutionary and thus not 'human development', at least not 'natural' human development. Although it does involve enhanced physical abilities if you look at it a certain way, even if those are the ability to resist disease or avoid genetic diseases/defects - such as autism, or haemophilia, or cancer.

Anyway, I shan't keep going giving more examples, I just wondered if there had been any discussion of this topic before, and if anyone had any thoughts as to where books dealing with such subject matter might be best thought to belong.
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gallyangel
Posted 2015-08-26 3:11 AM (#11230 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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The only sub-genre tag I'd like to see added, at the moment, is something like police/detective. Lots of SF/F/H use the tropes of that genre as a starting point for their SF/F/H story to follow or be launched from or conform to.
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catbrew
Posted 2017-01-21 1:09 PM (#15146 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Looks like it's been awhile since this thread has been active, but.... I'd like to see satirical and/or dark comedy
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illegible_scribble
Posted 2017-01-25 4:56 AM (#15172 - in reply to #11230)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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gallyangel - 2015-08-26 8:11 PM The only sub-genre tag I'd like to see added, at the moment, is something like police/detective. Lots of SF/F/H use the tropes of that genre as a starting point for their SF/F/H story to follow or be launched from or conform to.

Or Mystery/Detective? I love SF mysteries, and I hate that there's no way to identify them.  

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illegible_scribble
Posted 2017-01-25 4:59 AM (#15173 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Also, I notice up above that it doesn't looks as though Cloning was ever addressed. I was looking for that one just the other day. I agree with that poster's observations about why it doesn't really fit under some of the existing categories.

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Sable Aradia
Posted 2019-07-26 1:51 PM (#21202 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Hey, I've got a question. I can't seem to add sub-genres to some books that were just added (Queen of the Orcs trilogy.) Does someone else add those, or has the feature just not been enabled for some reason on those books (maybe because they're new?) I have suggestions: dark fantasy and sword and sorcery, possibly high fantasy too. Thanks!

EDIT: Scratch that, I found it. Thanks!

Edited by Sable Aradia 2019-07-26 1:56 PM
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Bormgans
Posted 2021-11-03 4:57 AM (#23518 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Could you add the CliFi (Climate Fiction) subgenre? There's tons of books being published that fall in that category.
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risbom
Posted 2021-11-03 12:49 PM (#23519 - in reply to #23518)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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You have my vote for this. Though Robinson's Ministry for the Future first coming to my mind is not a ton, but a recent example.
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Bormgans
Posted 2021-11-15 6:44 AM (#23542 - in reply to #23519)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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risbom - 2021-11-03 7:49 PM You have my vote for this. Though Robinson's Ministry for the Future first coming to my mind is not a ton, but a recent example.

 True, a ton is an overstatement. Goodreads has a list with 312  titles atm, and another one with 946 titles. As the topic will continue to get visibility, the number of clifi SF novels will only increase.



Edited by Bormgans 2021-11-15 7:12 AM
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daxxh
Posted 2021-11-22 7:49 PM (#23550 - in reply to #23542)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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I would like to see CliFi added as a subgenre as well.
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Administrator
Posted 2021-11-22 9:15 PM (#23551 - in reply to #23550)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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Please don't think we are ignoring the sub-genre requests. We're getting some data together on our current subs so we can look at the whole range and do a major update. I'm hoping we can eliminate some that we're not using, combine some together, redefine some, and yes, add some like Cli Fi and Grim Dark. I'll be back with the data shortly and we'll set up an EntMoot to discuss options.

Thanks to everyone for their input and suggestions and above all patience!

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risbom
Posted 2022-06-07 8:31 AM (#24015 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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My vote for CliFi SF, Termination Shock being the last example. Though the last post here is from 2021, and nothing happened. But there is always hope.
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Administrator
Posted 2022-06-11 3:38 PM (#24024 - in reply to #24015)
Subject: Re: Sub-Genres



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risbom - 2022-06-07 8:31 AM My vote for CliFi SF, Termination Shock being the last example. Though the last post here is from 2021, and nothing happened. But there is always hope.

Climate Fiction is now officially a sub-genre on WWEnd. Tag away!

Here is the definition I added. If you have any suggestions to make it better please comment here.

Climate fiction, or cli-fi, is science fiction that deals with the reality of climate change and global warming. Works generally take place in the world as we know it or in the near future and often include dystopian or utopian themes. These works imagine potential futures based on humanity's response to the impacts of climate change on our physical world and society at large.

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imnotsusan
Posted 2022-08-17 10:20 PM (#24995 - in reply to #2511)
Subject: RE: Sub-Genres



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Hi! I know a lot of work has gone into thinking about how sub-genres apply, so apologies if this is repetitive. I'd like to make another pitch for opening up sub-genres so that they can be applied to any book, regardless of whether it's been classified as science fiction, fantasy, or horror. I just got done reading LaRose by Louise Erdrich. It's appropriately classified as fantasy. But the fantasy elements are ghosts. Not scary horror novel ghosts, but definitely ghosts. Calling it "magical realism" doesn't feel accurate, but it's my only option for a fantasy book. Or, The Demolished Man is very much about "psychic abilities," but ends up getting labelled with the somewhat vague catch-all "human development." (Or, I see the characters with psychic abilities in Jewels of Aptor were maybe labelled "mutants.") I know scrolling through the whole sub-genre list can be a bit much, but I think having the option could improve the accuracy of sub-genre labelling for books that have cross-genre elements. Thanks!
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