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jwharris28

Posted 2015-01-27 7:38 AM (#9372 - in reply to #9371)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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The Green Hills of Earth has some of Heinlein's stories that were sold to the slicks, like Saturday Evening Post. That was a huge step up for a pulp writer. But the do seem slight today. They're good stories, but not standout stories. To me, Heinlein was always best when he was writing for young adults. His best short story is "The Menace From Earth," which has a teenage girl for the main character. My second favorite story is the very adult "All You Zombies..." - which might be his last two short stories. Which supports my theory that Heinlein peaked as a writer between 1955-1960.

I didn't start reading Heinlein until 1964, so it's hard to gauge the impact Heinlein's stories had in the 1940s. From what I read though, he was a shooting star right from the start in 1939, and his stories were extremely popular. I wish I could comprehend how readers felt about Heinlein when The Man Who Sold the Moon and The Green Hills of Earth came out in 1950 and 1951. Just how many people were thinking of space travel? Or how many people read science fiction? What were the print runs on those early books? I'm sure V-2 rockets and the atom bomb got a lot of people receptive to science fictional ideas.

DrNefario

Posted 2015-01-29 4:01 AM (#9379 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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I finished Green Hills of Earth yesterday. It was fine. Not outstanding, but readable. Mostly tales of everyday life in the space age that never happened. I have no idea what it's doing on the Baen Military SF list.

Two Masterworks coming up for 1952 and 1953: City by Clifford D Simak and Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke. The latter is the highest-ranked book I haven't read on the Locus All-time Top 100 (in fact, my top 3 unread books on that list are the 3 headliners from the 50s I haven't read.) I have to say I'm looking forward to the Simak more than the Clarke. I've always found Clarke a bit stodgy.

DrNefario

Posted 2015-01-29 4:47 AM (#9384 - in reply to #9379)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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Ah, I've just realised it's probably "The Long Watch" that makes it count as MilSF.

jwharris28

Posted 2015-01-29 7:26 AM (#9386 - in reply to #9379)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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City is one of my all-time favorite science fiction books. I'll be very curious to see what you think. I'm not sure it will hold up for modern readers because it's very sentimental, even wistful.

illegible_scribble

Posted 2015-01-29 2:40 PM (#9392 - in reply to #9314)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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gallyangel - 2015-01-17 8:50 PM

What dates a story for me is culture. If the society/culture of some far flung place feels like 1955, 1968, whatever, then I have problems very quickly. I'd like to think I can handle bad, indifferent writing (I have to read my own), so that's not an issue for me. What breaks that suspension of disbelief is different for everyone.

I read Joe Haldeman's The Forever War (1974) a few months ago. Whilst I really enjoyed it, I have to say that I liked Scalzi's Old Man's War (2004) better. Of course, the fact that I was too young to really have a first-hand awareness of the Vietnam War probably contributes to that, because that resonance with people who were acutely aware of / involved in the war seems to be a huge part of the book's enduring appeal.

But Haldeman also posits that all female soldiers tacitly agree to sleep with all the male soldiers and avoid monogamous linkups to help prevent "problems" amongst the troops, and the main character freaks out repeatedly about homosexuality. Both of those I found to be now quite unlikely concepts which really "dated" the novel and broke my suspension of disbelief.

Edited by illegible_scribble 2015-01-29 2:42 PM

jwharris28

Posted 2015-01-29 3:02 PM (#9393 - in reply to #9392)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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I still consider Starship Troopers the conversation starter, which in a way, The Forever War was a reply, and then Ender's Game and finally Old Man's War were later comments. All are great books, but I was hugely let down by Old Man's War when the main character was rejuvenated. I thought the story was going to be about an old man. I thought that was a very cool perspective. And then he became an ordinary normal horny young man, and the story lost its novelty for me. Still good, but I was let down from my opening expectations. Full disclosure here - I'm old, so I root for older guys now.

illegible_scribble

Posted 2015-01-29 7:49 PM (#9396 - in reply to #9393)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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jwharris28 - 2015-01-30 8:02 AM

I was hugely let down by Old Man's War when the main character was rejuvenated. I thought the story was going to be about an old man. I thought that was a very cool perspective. And then he became an ordinary normal horny young man, and the story lost its novelty for me.

For me, if Scalzi had left him in a failing body to go off and fight in an interstellar war, it would have pretty much trashed any suspension of disbelief.

I'm curious why you no longer think of him as an "old man". His essence is still the same; he's still got the same personality, and his many decades of experience and wisdom. He's still an old man -- and far from ordinary. He's just been put into a different container.

jwharris28

Posted 2015-01-29 8:04 PM (#9397 - in reply to #9396)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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illegible_scribble - 2015-01-29 7:49 PM

For me, if Scalzi had left him in a failing body to go off and fight in an interstellar war, it would have pretty much trashed any suspension of disbelief.

I'm curious why you no longer think of him as an "old man". His essence is still the same; he's still got the same personality, and his manydecades of experience and wisdom. He's still an old man -- and far from ordinary. He's justbeen put into a different container.

But the story started me off with the belief that the old guy was going to find a new purpose when he was old. I thought Scalzi was going to give reasons to be old and living in space. Which could be true. Having an old body in low gravity might extend our abilities. Also, old people don't have to worry about their reproductive organs being damaged by radiation. I thought the story started off promising geezers in space, and I liked that idea. I'm not against SF about rejuvenation, but I was intrigued by old people finding new life in outer space. That would have been a new and unique plot twist.

dustydigger

Posted 2015-01-30 4:04 AM (#9399 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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Looking at the 1951 list,I have previously read 5 of them. Sorry but I could never take to the Foundation series,which I have been rereading this last year or two. Since I never found the whole psychohistory premise that Seldon could predict the future credible in the least, I was unenthusiastic from the start. Then it is very ''bitty,natural enough in a fix-up novel I suppose. No characterization at all,at least I want a little bit! So not my thing.
Heinlein's Puppet Masters was one of his ''cheesy'' ones I felt,but at least it was a fast moving fun read.
Bradbury's Illustrated Man was a great favourite of mine back in the 60s. I remember our very small SF corner,probably never more than 150 books on the shelves,but all the Bradbury anthologies were there - Illustrated Man,Golden Apples of the Sun,Machineries of Joy,October Country and of course Martian Chronicles/Silver Locusts. I imagine most of the books were older SF ,from the 40s and 50s though of course all new to me,so short stories were the order of the day. Theodore Sturgeon was King of the Castle then,along with Clarke,Asimov,Damon Knight. Oddly,I dont remember any Heinlein at all,I got into him much later,the 1980s.
The Stars Like Dust was just a run of the mill books,aimiable but nothing special. Apparently it was Asimov's least fave book.
Day of the Triffids was an excellent read.and still is.It never won awards,but it outstrips all the other books in its year by appearing in no less than 10 WWEnd lists.,equalling Martian Chronicles. I think I have read it at least three times,plus all the TV adaptations. It seems to be a national imperative to bring out a new version every 10 or 15 years or so here in the UK! lol.
I am now half way through Between Planets by Heinlein for my 1951 book,and its quite enjoyable,though not first rank. More about it when I finish.I also just received Hal Clement's Iceworld,also 1951,which I will read next. It was a nice surprise,I ordered just Iceworld,but the library sent me the brand new Gateway SF series omnibus containing Iceworld,Close to Critical and Cycle of Fire,none of which I have read before,so yippee! Pity Needle wasnt among them,I would have read it for 1950!

jwharris28

Posted 2015-01-30 6:58 AM (#9400 - in reply to #9399)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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Dustydigger, if we compare these old 1951 books to modern books, they don't hold up well. The best of them might be V-2 rockets, whereas the current book I'm reading, The Signature of All Things by Elizabeth Gilbert would be a Saturn 5. And most of those old science fiction stories would only be small sounding rockets.

I concur with your assessment. I also have a lot of trouble with the Foundation stories. I'm trying again, because I read so many essays about people's love for that series, but I struggle to find anything to like. I've only read the original trilogy though. What's funny is I love the opening of Foundation where we see Trantor for the first time, and then it's all downhill from there. The whole psychohistory thing just seems silly.

dustydigger

Posted 2015-01-30 9:20 AM (#9401 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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Wow! AT LAST someone who agrees with me about the psychohistory. I found it ridiculous from chapter one! And I never did understand why the Mule was such a catastrophe and derailed the whole thing. I particularly found it disconcerting when,after taking up large amounts of space in the first two books he was summarily dismissed from the tale! Not with a bang but a whimper - if even that.
I recently read Foundation's Edge and here we were suddenly expected to join up the Seldon universe with the robots,which I found a bit odd.. I much preferred good old Daneel and Lige stories,even Fantastic Voyage,which at least was fast paced and amusing! I also was pretty unmoved by The Gods Themselves,so I seem not to be much of an Asimov fan..
About Day of the Triffids. I know Brian Aldiss was pretty scathing about it,calling it the founder of the Cozy Catastrophe school,but it is still very readable today,and was massively influential. I remember the first time I saw 28 Days Later,being dimly aware that the early scenes were very familiar,when it dawned what the source was,Bill coming out of the hospital.As for cozy catastrophes,I dont think the characters found it all very cozy at all!
I cant locate Aldiss's comments on the genre but TVTropes had a typically wry and amusing explanation -
"Cosy Catastrophe" is a term coined by Brian Aldiss . The End of the World as We Know It has arrived and ... our heroes feel fine. Sure, it's a pity for all those billions who just perished at the hands of super-plague/aliens/nuclear war. But for our safe, middle-class, (usually) white heroes, it means a chance to quit their day job, steal expensive cars without feeling guilty, sleep in a five-star hotel for free, and relax while the world falls apart around them. Maybe things weren't as good as they were in The Beforetimes, but all in all, life is still enjoyable. Especially if you brought your dog.
Maybe later they'll band together to recreate a humble yet sustainable pretechnological society. Maybe, if they're of mixed genders, they'll see it as their duty to repopulate the species (wink wink). Maybe they'll just learn to accept the extinction of the human race with quiet dignity. Either way, the end of the world shouldn't be the ... end of the world, so to speak.Expect Arcadia since there's not as much pollution and construction''
I think we need to look at the conditions of the time Wyndham was writing. That very uncozy catastrophe World War II was still fresh and painful,devastating and with looming problems to come. Hey,we were still on rationing in UK! I think seeing hope through the ruins of the fictional,however bleak, world made the real world more manageable. Some adventure,some excitement,yes some getting perks by grabbing what you wanted was a nice little sop to the rigours of life. Its very similar in the crime fiction arena,James Bond exploded on the scene in - was it 1953,and was drinking champagne,eating fancy food driving a fancy car at a time when my mother was trading her clothing coupons with a neighbour to give her kids two bananas a month instead of one,half the houses in the area were ruins,and life was very grey. I think cozy catastrophes with their wish fulfilment and hope that things can only get better were an excellent source of reassurance and comfort for the times,and the Triffids was well enough written and had such a strong story it has manage to live far beyond the label,which wasnt particularly fair anyway.

DrNefario

Posted 2015-01-30 9:49 AM (#9403 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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I can kind of see Aldiss's point about the cosy catastrophe, but it doesn't stop me enjoying them any more than the "cosy mystery" tag stops me enjoying Agatha Christie.

I get the feeling that Wyndham was much more significant in the UK than he was in the US, which is maybe why he missed out on the awards. I don't have any actual evidence to back that up.

jwharris28

Posted 2015-01-30 9:57 AM (#9404 - in reply to #9401)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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When the Classic Science Fiction book club read The Day of the Triffids we were all amazed by how much we enjoyed the book. It really is a standout novel, and is still effective today. And it's cozy nature is its main virtual. I didn't know their was a sub-genre "cozy catastrophe" but I love that, even if Aldiss was sneering at it.

One of my all-time favorite books is Earth Abides, but modern versions also include The Road, The Dog Stars, The Age of Miracles and endless parade of YA novels about the end of the world told at the family level.

My only criticism of The Day of the Triffids would be the Triffids. The book would still have been great without them. But I didn't hate them either. I was willing to overlook killer walking plants.

dustydigger

Posted 2015-02-05 5:53 AM (#9522 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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Lol,Jim! Poor old triffids,lurching around like drunks ,they lost a lot of credibility once Little Shop of Horrors came out. But still I get a frisson on they quietly but determinedly line up and lean on the fences of the survivors' compound. Werent the triffids supposed to be genetically engineered by the nasty Russians? I'm a bit vague on that ,its a long time since I read it

dustydigger

Posted 2015-02-05 6:05 AM (#9523 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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I finished my 1951 read, Heinlein's Between Two Planets,good fun.Rockets with fins? Check. Sliderules? CheckI dont mind outdated science,I just assume I am reading a book set in an alternate world,where this stuff is perfectly acceptable. Here's my report
Email

One of Heinlein's fun ''juveniles''. Don Harvey,warned by his parents on Mars to leave his schooling on Earth before there is war between Earth and its Martian and Venusian colonies,is asked to collect a package from a professor friend before leaving Earth,which leads to his arrest and the mysterious death of the professer. There is a seemingly valueless plastic ring which is returned to him by the ominous security officers,and he takes it off on his travels to Mars,via space station and Venus/. On the spaceflight he aids a stricken Venusian ''dragon'' andwitnesses the destruction of the military space station by the rebels. Landing on Mars he is overtaken by the war,and is surprised that Earth is searching for him and his ring,which eventually proves to holdvital breakthrough technology about weapons and speeding up spaceflight.
Don sees a friend murdered by the Earth troops,and escapes from a prison camp,wading through vile stagnt swamps full of mud lice. He falls in with rebels and becomes a guerilla taking part in dangerous raids. Eventually he meets up with the brilliant Dragon,again and passes on the ring,which gives the edge to the rebels.Oh,and there is a light little romance too,though the not very sharp Don barely recognises it!
I really enjoyed this book full of action and adventure,but with nuggets intriguing enough to keep the interest of adults. I was glad that it was written at a time when all the data we had on Venus was by telescope etc,and authors could still have fun inventing strange environments and could still have venusian ''dragons''!
This was,as is common with Heinlein juveniles,a coming of age story-,but with some more serious shadows. The ebullient practical but rather obtuse young man we meet at first comes through hard times,and that has impact on him,though Heinlein touches only lightly on it for his young readers eager for adventure. On Venus he sees a friend shot dead,and in a prison camp though he escapes when an outage makes the electric fence be useless he gets over in time but sees a fellow prisoner fried as the fence comes on again. When he meets up with rebels their leader is frank about their aims,to make the lives of the small earth force unbearable and expensive inn terms of men and equipment. ''We will sneak in at night and cut their throats,and sneak out again for breakfast'' and we can assume when Don joins them he is involved with this,though its not very explicit - ''He learned the ways of the guerilla - to infiltrate without sound,to strike silently and fade back into the dark....those that learned survived,those that did not,died....He aquired deep lines around his mouth.lines beyond his years,and a white puckered scar on his left forearm.''
On a later occasion,when reunited with allies someone tries to bully him into giving up the ring calling him a young boy,and suddenly,seemingly out of nowhere a knife is pressed against the mans stomach.,and he insists on being regarded as an adult. At one point he thinks about his parents,but admits to himself that somehow he can not conjure up any emotions. None of this sort of thing is standard in juvenile fiction,and as |I said,it makes for enjoyable reading for adults

daxxh

Posted 2015-02-05 10:59 PM (#9526 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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I am trying to choose which books I will read for this challenge and I have found that I own a lot of 50s books that I haven't read. 1959 is the only year that I have only one book on my TBR shelf. I have a lot of unread Asimov and Heinlein. I am having a hard time choosing...

DrNefario

Posted 2015-02-06 10:52 AM (#9532 - in reply to #9526)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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1959 is the year I have the fewest unread books, and now the only year where I don't own any of them. All being well, however, I will be visiting a couple of good second-hand bookshops tomorrow, and hope to fill in some of the gaps.

pizzakarin

Posted 2015-02-06 2:17 PM (#9534 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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If you're into getting as many challenges completed as possible, I have found that nine of my 10 picks for this challenge count as entries on different lists for the Listomania Challenge. (Dorsai! doesn't count because it was nominated for a tracked award).

Edit: And if you're going to be munchkin, the other way to complete the challenge is to read books on the same list and as long as they haven't been nominated or won an award, all of these books are on the same "list".

Edited by pizzakarin 2015-02-06 2:20 PM

dustydigger

Posted 2015-02-06 3:14 PM (#9536 - in reply to #9534)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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I intended to read Vonnegut's Player Piano for 1952,and fortunately got it through the library,the battered original edition. Wasnt too enthused about Vonnegut. Cat's Cradle amused me greatly way back in 1964, but it doesnt stand up today. And am I the only person who did not like Slaughterhouse Five? Well,I have made a serious attempt to get through Player Piano. Oh no,dystopia,a world where machines have taken away the work of the masses.I couldnt take to any of the characters and just didnt feel up to this book about a failed attempt to restore a better society. . I gave up at 100 pages,sneaked a peek at the ending - yep,thoroughly downbeat,so bye bye Vonnegut. I wanted to try Simak's City,which wasnt in the library,then was delighted to see they recently got a copy of the 2011 Masterworks edition. Now the library says it is no longer available The amazon prices were horrific so bye bye Simak. I finally located a kindle edition of This Island Earth,and I think this will be much more fun,about a man who finds a catalogue of spare parts for alien technology. Sounds fun!

DrNefario

Posted 2015-02-07 9:15 AM (#9547 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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Mixed fortunes at the second hand shop. Only one book for the challenge, Midwich Cuckoos, and one, er, not for the challenge. Still plenty of time to find something for 1959.

jwharris28

Posted 2015-02-07 11:37 AM (#9549 - in reply to #9536)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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Dustydigger, I'm having trouble with Vonnegut too, but I still like Slaughterhouse Five. I think. I haven't reread in several years. I'm generally bothered by satire. It dries out rather fast, and satire is usually cold and lacking in emotional warmth. I think Slaughterhouse Five has some warmth to it. Vonnegut's other books are just old dried out satire. That's why I don't like The Space Merchants anymore. If a book doesn't make me cry in places, I usually consider it inconsequential. The best books put you through an emotional ringer, leaving you all teary eyed and snotty nosed. Satire just doesn't push any buttons for me.

dustydigger

Posted 2015-02-07 12:52 PM (#9550 - in reply to #9549)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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Jim,you are so right about satire. There has to be something beyond it,either character or plot to make it viable,and . Player Piano seemed to have some what was meant to be humour,but it seemed heavy handed to me. As for Slaughterhouse 5,I may have gone into it with wrong impressions. Someone had said it was a time travel novel and so it was not at all what I was expecting. I felt as if I were being manoeuvred into sympathy for the characters one minute,then there was off the wall sections about the space zoo and those aliens,and I found the mix not very smooth or enjoyable. And the characters were not very well delineated either To me it was really just literary fiction using SF motifs for other purposes. I felt disconnected from it,and as I said,felt a bit manipulated. I could feel no connection at all with Player Piano,even though we are much nearer the state of machines taking over today than was the case back then. I never take much to such books (thinking of Atwood's Handmaid's Tale,as just one example),its just me being a philistine as usual! In my old age and want some nice straightforward exciting stuff,my days with litearry fiction are long gone!

jwharris28

Posted 2015-02-12 5:19 PM (#9621 - in reply to #9162)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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Things have been quiet around here. For 1952 I'm reading The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester. I'm disappointed its not available from Audible.com. Audible has a tremendous number of the old classics, but for certain writers they have nothing, like Bester and Samuel R. Delany. Audible even has The Dreaming Jewels and More Than Human by Sturgeon, a rather obscure figure today. Audible even has E. C. Tubb, so it's strange they have nothing by such major writers as Bester and Delany.

Edited by jwharris28 2015-02-12 5:20 PM

illegible_scribble

Posted 2015-02-12 6:06 PM (#9622 - in reply to #9621)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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jwharris28 - 2015-02-12 5:19 PM

The Demolished Man - Alfred Bester - Audiobook Full 8:27:40, from ScienceFictionAB on YouTube

Edited by illegible_scribble 2015-02-12 6:09 PM

jwharris28

Posted 2015-02-12 7:07 PM (#9624 - in reply to #9622)
Subject: Re: The Definitive 1950s Reading Challenge

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illegible_scribble - 2015-02-12 6:06 PM

The Demolished Man - Alfred Bester - Audiobook Full 8:27:40, from ScienceFictionAB on YouTube

Thanks! And it's a pretty good reading too.

Jim

Edited by jwharris28 2015-02-12 7:08 PM

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