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Women and Fantasy
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2013-02-21 10:09 AM (#4735)
Subject: Women and Fantasy



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The Nebula nominees are out and while I haven't read any of them it does seem to have a preponderance of fantasy. It also has more women authors nominated than men ( a first I think). The two things seem to go together. While women are sadly under-represented in F & SF where they are present it is mostly on the Fantasy side. Why is that?

While I strongly disagree with the Larry Summer's suggestion that women are inherently poorer at STEM subjects it does seem that they have a dislike of them. The science in SF is often not real science, space warps and wormholes are speculative in the extreme, so one could put in any old rubbish to explain things just as Star Trek did (the dilithium crystals are warping the tachyon flux, Captain), but women still don't go for it. I think it's a good assumption that women read more F than SF. So what about it do they dislike?
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2013-02-21 10:16 AM (#4736 - in reply to #4735)
Subject: RE: Women and Fantasy



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Correction: The 2010 Nebula noms had more women than men.
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dustydigger
Posted 2013-03-12 1:13 PM (#4828 - in reply to #4735)
Subject: Re: Women and Fantasy



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Location: UK		justified sinner.I am not really qualified for pontificating on this,because I was out of SF for decades.But at the same time,I could rarely get into Fantasy at all.Women might prefer fantasy because it allows for much more character interaction,perhaps we just like character driven tales.I know,as a member of about a dozen groups,reading crime,fantasy,romance,and SF,women tend to put character central to the story.They liked the books because of the great characters,and only after that can they appreciate the distinctive items making this book enjoyable.If we like the characters,we accept other things quite happily.Look at Bujold,there is actually a great deal about gender and alien science in her books,but subsumed to Miles Vorkosigan and friends.An awful lot of classic SF is based on ideas and science,character is the minimum necessary to carry the plot,so it can seem very dull to women.I know a huge number of women are reading the Star Trek books.They recognise the characters,and happily go off after the dithilium crystals,or embrace time travel (look how many women really enjoyed Audrey Niffeneggers The Time Travellers Wife,because it humanised the time travel tropes .) as long as the characters are likable and recognizable.They are superbly underwhelmed by Star Wars! lol.
Please dont take all this as gospel,I have read too inadequately in the fantasy genre to make major diktats,but I think the recent resurgence of females in both genres is because they recognize the need for ideas AND plot,and are furnishing their readers with good reads as a result.Perhaps keeping an eye on the reviews of books in the WoGF with give you more info on the topic!
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Badseedgirl
Posted 2013-03-13 1:32 AM (#4829 - in reply to #4735)
Subject: RE: Women and Fantasy



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Location: Middle TN, USA		Speaking as a woman, I was embarrased by how very few of the Fantasy novels I recognized, let alone have read off the 100 best Fantasy Novels list. I have read the Fantasy series everyone has read LOTR, Chronicles of Narnia, The Songs of Fire and Ice and the first Thomas Covenant Novel. But other than that, not that much. Don't get me wrong, I'm not thrilled with Hard SF, I have never been able to complete a Asimov novel, because all the tech talk bores me to no end.

For me personally, I find the inevitable gooy romance that seems to go hand in had with most fantasy novels just too much to take. There has to be a middle ground, character developement and technology. The answer is of course "Steampunk" This offers the best of both worlds. Unfortunately, steampunk as a genre is not well known, can be hard to describe so it can be a pot shot as to how hard the science gets.

I guess what I am saying is that if a womans first intro to SF is a "Hard" tech novel, it could be a tough sell for your average female reader. This is of course a generalization. I'm sure there are plenty of women who love Hard SF, so please don't rip me for that line.
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2013-03-13 10:20 AM (#4830 - in reply to #4735)
Subject: Re: Women and Fantasy



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I created a great furor on Library Thing when I re-posted this thread some of which splashed back on WWE (see some of the stuff on the WoGF thread). It would seem that there are a great deal more SF novels written by women than apparent but bias by publishers and some male readers prevents them being either published, publicized or given awards to. Many women are forced to publish SF novels under male or male sounding pseudonyms.
That saying fantasy novels and presumably readers outnumber SF ones by 7:1 but even so the apparent gender bias is more apparent than real as your comments seem to bear out.
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Scott Laz
Posted 2013-03-13 5:57 PM (#4834 - in reply to #4735)
Subject: Re: Women and Fantasy



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Location: Gunnison, Colorado		I'm curious about this, too. My wife used to reject SF and fantasy, but last year gave fantasy another try, and is now enjoying some of it--Guy Kay's Under Heaven, Karen Lords's Redemption in Indigo, Walton's Among Others, Mary Kowal's novels, and she just recently read LOTR and the Earthsea series for the first time, and loved them (especially Earthsea). But so far she has only gotten a short way into any SF book I've recommended before giving up on it, including those by authors (like Le Guin) whose fantasy work she has enjoyed. And I can't seem to get a clear explanation of why, though I will keep working on it!
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DrNefario
Posted 2013-03-14 6:25 AM (#4838 - in reply to #4830)
Subject: Re: Women and Fantasy



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justifiedsinner - 2013-03-13 4:20 PM

It would seem that there are a great deal more SF novels written by women than apparent but bias by publishers and some male readers prevents them being either published, publicized or given awards to. Many women are forced to publish SF novels under male or male sounding pseudonyms.

I don't really buy this. There at a lot of great and recognised to be great SF books by women out there, and some of the field's leading authors are women. Of my personal favourites, I think only CJ Cherryh has an ambiguous name, and I don't think I've ever been unaware that she was a she.

It seems obvious to me that a field with fewer female fans will generate fewer female writers, but does it follow that the opposite is true? Would more female writers generate more female fans? That would imply that there is something different about women's writing, and that's not a road I'm happy to go down. You can point to supposedly female aspects of the writing of Cherryh, Bujold, Willis, etc, but I feel that they are individual characteristics and generalising them away seems to do the writers a disservice.
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dustydigger
Posted 2013-03-14 10:22 AM (#4841 - in reply to #4838)
Subject: Re: Women and Fantasy



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Location: UK		Today we would expect women to be more confident at having female names,but I have had several surprises in the WoGF female authors lists.I class myself as a general reader having little knowledge of author bios,and hadnt realized that Julian May,Rob Thurman,and Kage Baker were femaleI did know about Andre Norton,Leigh Brackett,Francis Stevens, C.L.Moore from much earlier times..And there are still a lot of women writing under initials.about 15 on this list.
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justifiedsinner
Posted 2013-03-14 10:30 AM (#4842 - in reply to #4735)
Subject: Re: Women and Fantasy



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C. J. Cherryh is really Carolyn Cherry, her publisher got her to use C. J. to disguise the fact she was a man and to add the H to Cherry so it didn't sound like a romance writer. Other names: James Tiptree, C. L. Moore, Andre Norton, Chris Moriarty, C. L. Andersen, Magnus Flyte, J. K. Rowling, Vernon Lee, Paul Ash, Murray Constantine, Leigh Brackett and D. C. Fontana.

I wasn't implying anything about readers my post was all about the apparent skewed basis among writers. It is interesting to note that both Harlan Ellison and Robert Silverberg were convinced James Tiptree was a man because of the masculine qualities in "his" writing.
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Scott Laz
Posted 2013-03-14 12:24 PM (#4844 - in reply to #4735)
Subject: Re: Women and Fantasy



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Location: Gunnison, Colorado		I got C.J. Cherryh's "Brothers of Earth" from the SF Book Club in 1976 because it looked interesting, and I was always looking for new authors to try, having just gotten into SF as a kid. I got hooked by that book and read everything she wrote for the next fifteen years or so. When I read it, I didn't know the novel was written by a woman, but I'm sure I assumed the author was male, since most SF writers were at that time. I don't think it was ever a secret that C.J. was female, but back then it would have been difficult to find out unless it was somehow indicated in the book itself (no internet!). I can't remember exactly when I found out, but do remember being mildly surprised by it. I've asked myself since if I would have given the same chance to a new author if I'd known she was a woman--I hope so, because I would have missed out otherwise, but I have no way of knowing. Most likely anyone picking up one of her books now would know the author was female, but it's when they first enter the market that this sort of pseudonym might be advantageous. The fact that writers and publishers do it indicates that they have evidence that it is likely to help establish a career in SF.

I think nefario is correct that there is lots of great SF by women, but the question is whether their work receives the same prominence as it would if written by a male. Many seem to think not. Does the undeniable fact that some women have been successful (even with female names--Ursula, Connie, Lois, etc.) mean that there is no reader bias?
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