open

Science Fiction, Fantasy & Horror Forums

You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Random quote: Belief in the lie is the life of the lie. - Ursula Le Guin (Powers)
- (Added by: gallyangel)


When does sci-fi begin?
Moderators: Admin

Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]		View previous thread :: View next thread
   General Discussion -> SF/F/H ChatMessage format
 
icowrich
Posted 2007-07-05 5:32 PM (#598)
Subject: When does sci-fi begin?



Admin

Posts: 288
100
Location: Irving, TX		There are variety of opinions on this matter, and I'd like this debate to be a central topic on WWEnd. So, without further ado, I advance two opinions.

Mary Shelly: You could claim that science fiction is distinctly modern. The novel is the most modern of literary forms (hence the term "novel", as in novelty. Frankenstein is the first novel (according to many) to have been exclusively about the science. Thus you may say Mary Shelly wrote the first science fiction novel.

I tend not to accept that argument, however, since Shelly's novel didn't spark any imitators. No real culture of science fiction follwed her writing, and so one would be hard pressed to point to her as having started the genre.

I would, instead, agree with the popular opinion that Jules Verne (followed by HG Wells) as the father of sci-fi. Now, perhaps people can point to other such works written prior to Verne. If so, we're listening! I'd love to trace the genre back further. It seems that the notions of science in the renaissance could have provided fodder for such fiction much earlier than the 19th century. So, far, however, Mary Shelley seems (to me) to be an island in a barren sea.

Discuss.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
SapereAude
Posted 2007-07-11 11:05 PM (#659 - in reply to #598)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Veteran

Posts: 148
100
I would have to go with Jules Verne as the founder of the science fiction genre. He tended to use scientists in his adventures as protagonists. They often used their scientific training to solve or resolve their delimmas. Poe and Shelley stand out as voices in the wilderness.
In regards to Shelley, Stableford contends that her work is more gothic anti-science fiction rather then the progressive, optimistic view of the future held by most sf writers. Science fiction does emcompass those deriding science(anti-science) and its dangers and horrors, but it does not define the genre.
Verne and Wells get my vote!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
icowrich
Posted 2007-07-13 9:37 PM (#693 - in reply to #659)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Admin

Posts: 288
100
Location: Irving, TX		I, too, tend toward Verne as the start, but I can't say I agree that science fiction is inherently optimistic. Science fiction is an investigation of the consequences of science, sometimes for good and sometimes for ill. Certainly, Neuromancer isn't optimistic, nor was Brave New World, 1984, or Rainbows End. Science, according to many many science fiction authors, can bring endless peril.

This is all certainly consistent with the tradition of Shelley.

Still, I agree about the voices in the wilderness. No one picked up the mantle of Shelley after Frankenstein. You mentioned Poe, however, who is clearly Speculative Fiction, but really more on the horror side. I think you could make an argument for him being the (or at least a) father of horror (authors like Lovecraft did continue Poe's work, and the art of horror was rolling in due course), but that is a whole different thread.

So, that's two votes for Verne. Any dissention in the ranks?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
leestein
Posted 2007-09-15 1:39 PM (#1011 - in reply to #598)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



New User

Posts: 1
0
The thing about FRANKENSTEIN is there is really very little science in it. It is a morality tale which is only nominally science fiction. There is no explanation of how Frankenstein creates the or brings it to life. In fact, contrary to popular belief, it is not stated in the novel that he stitched dead body parts together. The fact that he made the body larger than life belies this.
Jules Verne was probably the first to make science the primary focus.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Deven Science
Posted 2007-09-25 11:38 AM (#1086 - in reply to #598)
Subject: RE: When does sci-fi begin?



Uber User

Posts: 202
100
Location: Sacramento, California		There are certainly earlier works that are now considered SF, such as Lucian of Samosata's "True Story", about two nations at war. One is from the sun, and one is from the moon, you see. In the story, the Earth, moon, and sun are unusually treated as unique and differring locales.

Anyhoo, back to point, while SF stories have been around here and there for hundreds (if not thousands, is the Iliad SF? Or Gilgamesh?) of years, I would agree that as a genre, science fiction was started by Verne and Wells. Both of them used science specifically to drive the plot of their stories.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
christopherw277
Posted 2007-10-01 2:06 PM (#1104 - in reply to #1086)
Subject: RE: When does sci-fi begin?



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 312
100
Location: London, U.K.		Yep, agreed. I think I'd lump in Edgar Allen Poe with those two, as well.... he was writing about a trip to the moon, I believe. I think he was an influence on H.G. as well as many later authors...

Top of the page Bottom of the page
hihik
Posted 2010-04-27 2:54 PM (#1942 - in reply to #1104)
Subject: RE: When does sci-fi begin?



Regular

Posts: 92
25
Location: Boston, MA		hey, how 'bout Jonathan Swift?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mattastrophic
Posted 2011-02-05 11:36 PM (#2332 - in reply to #598)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Member

Posts: 9
0
Location: Louisville, Ky		I just flat out don't like looking at any one author as the singular "father" or "mother" of any genre: that tends to reinforce the idea of the genius writer working in seclusion, spinning out golden ideas and forms from nothing. It undercuts the fact that they are products of their times and contexts. Some people want to think of SF as a way of encountering radical difference that goes back even further than Shelly, back to people like Swift and even as far back as the Tale of Genji. I think that brand of ancestor seeking might just be salving genre insecurity by gerrymandering canonical works under its umbrella. Consequently, I'm wary of crediting any one genius with having invented the genre.

I think there are works like those from Shelley, Verne, and Welles that we would bring under the early SF banner, but as to when "science fiction" really started was when it was when people we identify as SF writers began writing more in response to one another. As icowrich said, "No one picked up the mantle of Shelley after Frankenstein." What that says to me, and what I've gotten from the tenor of the thread here [and please correct me if I'm mistaken], is that the number of writers we would call SF was so sparse in the 19th and early 20th century that it's hard to say that Shelly, Verne, Wells, or Poe really invented the genre. It hadn't quite taken off on its own trajectory. I agree with critics like Michael Drout and Adam Roberts that it really congeals as people like Gernsback and Campbell were editing and guiding the SF periodicals, as SF authors were reading and talking to one another. That's when it became a thing you could name more easily: with the periodical fiction in the 20's, 30's, and 40's.

Those are my 2 cents, at least.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Wintermute
Posted 2011-03-08 6:23 PM (#2347 - in reply to #598)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Member

Posts: 35
25
Icowritch, it would be helpful to have a map of different writers through time and how they influenced each other. Well... this post may get much more interesting with Dave's newest (anticipated) post. Check out Ward Shelly's map: (http://scimaps.org/submissions/7-digital_libraries/maps/thumbs/024_LG.jpg). A little confusing trying to find the initial sci-fi story/novel. Was it Shelley's "The Last Man" in 1826 or Frankenstein in 1818? The map is a little confusing because it labels both as first.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Administrator
Posted 2011-03-08 9:22 PM (#2348 - in reply to #2347)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Admin

Posts: 4005
2000
Location: Dallas, Texas		I've posted the chart in the blog now.  Thanks again Wintermute for the sending me the link.  I'd surely love to have a big poster of this thing for my wall. 
Top of the page Bottom of the page
gallyangel
Posted 2011-03-24 3:30 AM (#2360 - in reply to #598)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Uber User

Posts: 857
500
Location: The Wilds of Washington		Since I first read this post, I've run across this series of books called Early Classics of Science Fiction. [http://www.upne.com/series/SFS.html]
Consider Lumen, pub. in 1872. It's one of the first to describe alien life forms. And this edition is the first one in english in a hundred years.
The Centenarian, 1822, this site has the first English translation. The blerp says this novel bridges the gap between alchemcy (the gothic novel) and science (science fiction).
The world as it shall be, first Dystopian work, pub. 1846. Also the first english translation.
I've always considered it strange that SF seemed to go straight from Frankenstein straight to Verne, then to Wells. Now I know. It didn't. All the other works either didn't get translated, or were just plain forgotten since they haven't had a printing in a hundred years! I agree a bit with mattastropic, writers are readers and these works and the others listed, would've been around for Verne, Wells, and each other to read and reflect upon.
Damn, those editions are expensive. Some of them I'd like to read.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
otteronarock
Posted 2011-09-14 4:06 PM (#2654 - in reply to #598)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Member

Posts: 7
0
I was recently told that referring to Science Fiction as 'Sci Fi' was considered rude by the masters. Is this true??? Is it rude to say 'Sci Fi ?" If so, WWWWHY?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Administrator
Posted 2011-09-14 8:41 PM (#2656 - in reply to #2654)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Admin

Posts: 4005
2000
Location: Dallas, Texas

Here is Wikipedia's answer to your question which is better than I could put it:

Forrest J Ackerman used the term sci-fi at UCLA in 1954. As science fiction entered popular culture, writers and fans active in the field came to associate the term with low-budget, low-tech "B-movies" and with low-quality pulp science fiction. By the 1970s, critics within the field such as Terry Carr and Damon Knight were using sci-fi to distinguish hack-work from serious science fiction, and around 1978, Susan Wood and others introduced the pronunciation "skiffy". Peter Nicholls writes that "SF" (or "sf" is "the preferred abbreviation within the community of sf writers and readers". David Langford's monthly fanzine Ansible includes a regular section "As Others See Us" which offers numerous examples of "sci-fi" being used in a pejorative sense by people outside the genre.

I, myself, don't hold with this practice.  It's always been sci-fi to me so I was surprised when I first heard there was a negative connotation.  There's good sci-fi and then there's bad sci-fi.  Simple enough.  Of course the SyFy channel does not help any with this negative reputation even with the name change.  There I pronounce SyFy as "siffy" because I loathe what they've become.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
otteronarock
Posted 2011-09-14 10:12 PM (#2657 - in reply to #2656)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Member

Posts: 7
0
Thanks for the excellent information. Now I can say Sci-fi with full awareness of it's sorted history. I think I'll be on the side that is pro Sci-fi as a sound description for a large genre. The 1950's got a lot of things miserably wrong. So I'm all for freeing the phrase from it's bad reputation. Interesting how words wiggle around like that. Cheers!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Mattastrophic
Posted 2011-09-14 10:57 PM (#2658 - in reply to #2657)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Member

Posts: 9
0
Location: Louisville, Ky		I remember thinking "Really?" when I heard this the first time, but I pay attention to it and listen for it now. I think you can read the intent in the context of the way people use the term, because how many people outside of the genre are really going to know about the history of what it's been called, really? If someone says "some kind of sci-fi movie" you can clearly tell it's pejorative, while someone who says "SF" is probably a fan, particularly if they take it to cover everything from science fiction to fantasy.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
nate1234
Posted 2011-09-15 2:41 PM (#2659 - in reply to #598)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Member

Posts: 29
25
i've heard kepler's _somnium_ cited as the earliest work of SF, but it's hard not to see it even earlier in myths like the chinese chang'e or the greek talos. one could draw an analogy to heliocentrism and aristarchus of samos--obviously heliocentrism didn't start in the ancient world, even though we can cite heliocentric models from that period.

i'd guess that as a literary movement/culture/phenomenon SF really exploded when people started doing SF magazines. i read very little short fiction, but wasn't that the emphasis in the beginning (vs novels)? were the "first" generation of writers people who read verne and wells as children? if so, when does that imitation first occur?
Top of the page Bottom of the page
otteronarock
Posted 2011-09-15 3:16 PM (#2661 - in reply to #2658)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Member

Posts: 7
0
I agree it is probably good to look out for those who are sensitive to the term and be respectful of their views. It seems a bit fussy though. What is so curious to me is- how, linguistically, the term has no inherent suggestion of being pejorative. Pejorative terms, in my experience, usually sound negative as well mean insult. (I'll refrain from listing examples...) So the negative connotation of 'Sci-Fi' is only cultural/historical and can only be discovered once an outsider moves closer to the insider group. And that puts a tone of exclusivity and privatization on the whole scene that could read as discouraging to new blood. I think it is important to be respectful and I'm glad to be aware of this bit of culture. I personally think that the linguistic debate is ready for some weathering and sedimentation.

Cheers!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
otteronarock
Posted 2011-09-15 3:26 PM (#2662 - in reply to #2659)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Member

Posts: 7
0
@nate 1234

Ah, so I think you've really clarified a point I've over looked. In the beginning the Sci Fi movement boomed inside a writing medium separate from full novels- living in magazine publications mostly. That would certainly explain how historically, book authors would have specific opinions about the new movement and how the term would be more concisely defined in those days. I think a similar comparison would be with Graffiti art. Graffiti is considered vandalism by most people- but it has recently vaulted into some truly stunning and valid art- moving from the streets into galleries and museums!

okay- back to work!
Top of the page Bottom of the page
icowrich
Posted 2011-09-15 4:35 PM (#2663 - in reply to #2659)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Admin

Posts: 288
100
Location: Irving, TX		A current exhibition at the British Library (http://www.bl.uk/sciencefiction) cites Lucian's True History as the first science fiction tale. I'm sure you can go back further (Homer mentions Hephaestus' mechanical creatures), but I'm content to settle on Shelley as the major impetus for the tradition of science fiction that was written pretty much continually until now. I recognize that even she had her precursors, but there is something to be said about popularizing a concept in order to make it a trend.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
otteronarock
Posted 2011-09-16 1:29 PM (#2666 - in reply to #598)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Member

Posts: 7
0
Awesome information. I seriously hope that exhibition travels to the states. Just to pay back the good link, have you visited the adobe museum of digital media? http://www.adobemuseum.com/
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Deven Science
Posted 2012-06-05 2:03 PM (#3309 - in reply to #2654)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Uber User

Posts: 202
100
Location: Sacramento, California
otteronarock - 2011-09-15 12:06 AM

I was recently told that referring to Science Fiction as 'Sci Fi' was considered rude by the masters. Is this true??? Is it rude to say 'Sci Fi ?" If so, WWWWHY?


Dave already filled you in on the history of the dislike for the term "Sci-Fi," but I'll side note that because of this fact, at some point in my teen years I began to refer to TV and/or movies as Sci-Fi, and anything literary as sf, out of respect for those that write the stuff, since that's what they prefer. It's become handy to me, as others can easily tell whether I'm referring to something I watched, or something I read.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Deven Science
Posted 2012-06-05 2:07 PM (#3310 - in reply to #2663)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Uber User

Posts: 202
100
Location: Sacramento, California
icowrich - 2011-09-16 12:35 AM

A current exhibition at the British Library (http://www.bl.uk/sciencefiction) cites Lucian's True History as the first science fiction tale. I'm sure you can go back further (Homer mentions Hephaestus' mechanical creatures), but I'm content to settle on Shelley as the major impetus for the tradition of science fiction that was written pretty much continually until now. I recognize that even she had her precursors, but there is something to be said about popularizing a concept in order to make it a trend.


I had never heard it referred to as True History, but as True Story. I looked it up, and it seems to be referred to all over as either/or.

You can download it for free all over, by the way. It's a neat, quick read. I enjoyed it.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
icowrich
Posted 2012-06-05 4:46 PM (#3312 - in reply to #598)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Admin

Posts: 288
100
Location: Irving, TX		Well,διηγήμα can translate as history or story, since the Greeks made no distinction between the two. In fact, another word for story, ἱστορία, became the root word for both "story" and "history." Lucian's title was, in fact, plural (Ἀληθῆ διηγήματα, not διηγήμα), so it could be most accurately translated as "True Stories" or "True Histories." In modern Greek, διηγήμα has come to mean "short story," though I doubt it had that meaning in Lucian's time.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Administrator
Posted 2012-06-05 7:09 PM (#3314 - in reply to #3312)
Subject: Re: When does sci-fi begin?



Admin

Posts: 4005
2000
Location: Dallas, Texas

icowrich - 2012-06-05 4:46 PM Well,διηγμα can translate as history or story, since the Greeks made no distinction between the two. In fact, another word for story, ἱστορα, became the root word for both "story" and "history." Lucian's title was, in fact, plural (Ἀληθῆ διηγματα, not διηγμ&alpha, so it could be most accurately translated as "True Stories" or "True Histories." In modern Greek, διηγμα has come to mean "short story," though I doubt it had that meaning in Lucian's time.

Now you're just showing off

Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [25 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread

(Delete all cookies set by this site)